ISI curriculum starts the backspin way later than USFS. It's so crucial for the axel jump, really they should not be introduced in the same level. I'd say probably preceding loop, in FS3? ISI does in fact introduce the backspin in FS3, as part of the change-foot although you can spin on either edge. I will tell you that in competition, many judges will award the higher score to the skater who does a correct outside edge back spin portion, no matter how many times an inside edge goes around. By the way, you need to understand the back spin position not just for axel (FS5) but also for loop and flip (FS4).
Anyway, by way of justification, the "any edge will do" backspin does at least get a skater spinning on the other foot, which is hard all in itself.
Why do they introduce the backspin as part of a change foot spin instead of introducing it as a separate element? Actually, I don't introduce the back spin as part of the change foot, nor do most of the coaches whose teaching approach I'm familiar with. We all do stand-alone back spins. In fact, this is one of the place where Basic Skills shines, with its 2-rotation back spin at Free Skate 2. If this element could be paired at a lower level with the change foot concept, you'd have kids getting easy back spins at FS5.
Here's what Randy Winslip, Director of Skating Programs for ISI told me:
"The back scratch spin in FS5 has always been required to be on the back outside edge - since the requirement for the test portion is to enter from a forward inside edge.I wish someone had told me to start working on my backspin at the same time I started working on forward. I would disagree. Get a solid forward one-foot spin (not necessarily scratch spin) first. Then worry about the back spin. However, it is a good idea to start working on forward scratch spin and beginning back spin around the same time.
While it's great if FS 3 skaters can learn to be on the back outside edge (personally, I always try to teach it like that to save time at higher levels), it has never been a FS3 test or competition requirement for the change-foot spin.The change-foot spin requirement in FS3 is meant to introduce the concept of spinning on both feet - but that concept is not expected to be mastered at that beginner freestyle level. It's more important that the skater can spin at least the minimum required 3 revolutions on the other foot.
Of course, I personally feel the skater will be much better prepared for FS5 and higher levels if the BO edge is emphasized and learned as early as possible."
How quickly should a skater acquire the scratch spin and the back spin? Both of these skills entail what I call "positions not found in nature." They are very difficult. However, spend the time on these and the higher skills-- loops, axel, double, fast back scratch, forward and back sit, will happen quickly. Just as proper stroking and edges are critical for beginner skaters, these beginner free style skills are critical for successful higher level skating. Don't skimp on the lesson time for these because "we have to start working on axels." Work on these skills until they are solid, because in a major way, you are working on axels.
I would not begin to venture a time line. It depends on the skater's talent and motivation, the amount of time on the ice, and the quality of prior skills.
What are your spin questions?
Posts
Thanks Xan! My daughter has really sped through the early levels- she started gamma in January and just passed from FS3 to FS4 at the summer half session. Her footwork seems to come very naturally to her but the spins are something else entirely. I have a feeling she will spend a long time in FS4 and then FS5 and it won't be about the jumps but all about the spins. I don't think she can feel the difference between when its centered properly and when its not until its too late. I like the "positions not found in nature" concept/
ReplyDeleteThank you Xan for addressing my question re: ISI backspin. I had tons of problems converting that inside edge to outside edge for backspin. Inside edge is just far more natural, and bad habits are difficult to correct once ingrained into muscle memory.
ReplyDeleteHave to say the USFS way is more logical. Maybe ISI should have a baby backspin (on the correct edge) for FS3 and leave change-foot-spin for later levels to prevent inducement of bad technique.
Oh and my current spin question: can't seem to snap into the scratch position (forward or back) and still stay on the ball, maintaining speed. I notoriously rock to the heel on backspins, my feet stops spinning while the upper body continues to twist... :( Tips or drills are much appreciated!
ReplyDeleteWhat is the relationship between blade type, sharpening, and the difficulty of spinning? People always talk about how the toepick size needs to be appropriate for the jumps you are doing, but what's the equivalent for spins? Are spins more effected by a damaged blade than other moves?
ReplyDeleteIs a twizzle more like a spin or a turn?
Having had a blade with a ruined profile I can attest that spins are affected by badly sharpened blades. The most common sharpening error is taking too much off the "sweet spot"--the area of the blade immediately behind the toe pick. This is the part you spin on. If it's been flattened or removed spins will be difficult. This will affect an inexperienced or lower level skater more than a really good skater. However, the problem with badly sharpened blades is that they affect the ability to control edges (and most spins are just tiny edges), so there is no single skill that is most badly affected.
ReplyDeleteJjane, do the toe pick drag drill on both feet-- set up some speed gliding backwards and then try to lightly drag just the top pick in a razor-straight line, keeping most of the ice contact on the sweet spot. This is where you need to hold your balance for a spin. If you find yourself rocking doing the drill, you're probably rocking doing the spin.
I am having terrible trouble centering a one-foot spin -- it just zings away into a series of 3-turns. Because I started in adult basic skills classes, two-foot spins came right at the end of the whole series rather than earlier, when they do for the standard basic skills classes. So now I'm in FS2 for all my other skills and still can't really spin. Sometimes, I can do a good, fast, centered two-foot (8 or more rotations); sometimes, I just fall out of it. With a one-foot, though, I rarely hit that sweet spot. And with either, I can't really feel why. I don't know what I'm doing differently when I'm doing it right. Any tips/drills for getting spins centered? (I don't mind if I only work on two-foot for a while till I get this right; periodically, I just give up on the one-foot and go back to them anyway, thinking that might help. It doesn't.)
ReplyDeleteIf it matters, I'm definitely a CCW skater based on everything else I can do.
This is just like might daughter but with both one and two foot spins. Sometimes she will get 8 or ten revolutions and then the next few times she will get one or less before falling out of it and she cannot tell what she is doing differently in each case.
ReplyDeleteI heard some people never get 2 foot but can do 1 foot spins so if you are going to give up on one maybe it should be the two foot.
The two foot is hard for some people, because they don't quite get that there is no such thing as a two-foot-spin. Most of your weight is on the skating side even if the other blade is on the ice. Equal weight on both feet is just a really tiny spread eagle.
ReplyDeleteMommytime, this problem is due, 80% of the time, to pulling in too soon, or trying to spin before the entry edge has diminished sufficiently. Try holding the entry edge for a slow count of 5 before attempting to create spin rotation. Or ask the coach "is the entry edge for my spin okay?" (Although why she wouldn't have noticed this already is a mystery)
ReplyDeleteIs a camel spin supposed to be in a spiral position? I've had several coaches tell me to get into a spiral position, or to practice spirals to help with the camel. They look completely different to me.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Xan. She has been teaching me an entry edge starting from a standstill, and the left-foot tracing is supposed to look like the right-hand side of a heart (where I begin at the bottom point, and the spin starts once I've traveled back far enough to create the top of the heart shape). I get how it's supposed to look but don't manage it well. I will try the slow count and force myself not to pull in for longer and see if that helps.
ReplyDeleteHi, Xan. I don't know if this is the correct post to ask questions on, so forgive me if I am wrong. My daughter and I have decided to switch her coach, but we are not sure how to go about doing this. This coach has poor communication skills, and also, on a recent private ice session was extremely rude to my daughter, who had confined herself to a corner to practice edges. This coach yelled at her for "taking up space when she had nothing to practice." Some other things have contributed to this decision, especially her lack of progress- she have been skating for a year and is still on basic 4/5. I tell her that everyone learns at different rates, but she says that it just seems unnaturally slow as she has two lessons a week and practices on her own as well. Several of her rink friends started off with the same coach as us and switched for the same reasons, and they are now progressing faster, etc. My question is, how do i go about doing this?? We don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or sever any ties as we do like my coach as a person, just not a coach.
ReplyDeleteAlso, she does group lessons as well and the current coach is one of the group coaches, so there's a possibility she could teach my daughter on some of the group sessions, and I don't want this to be awkward or uncomfortable. Should we just quit groups as well?
Thanks, Xan! Look forward to hearing from you.
TOAM - When doing her spin in an competition she does sit to camel, she will spin 6 times in the sit and 2 and a half times in the camel. She thinks she is doing 3-4 rotations in the camel. How do you help a skater recognize the number of rotations for each part of a spin? She said she "doesn't have time" for more camel rotations. But if she did fewer sit rotations she would. I'm just looking for advice so she knows - she spins pretty quickly so it's different from dance where they spot. She is just guessing!
ReplyDeleteYou can still spot in singles (after all side-by-side pairs spins are just singles spins). If she's only getting 2 1/2 rotations on her camel she's not spinning very fast. Counting rotations is very challenging but it is a great exercise for body awareness. She needs to have someone "mark" her spins, that is, stand close enough so she can hear, and call off her rotations. Eventually she will start to feel them and be able to mark them herself.
ReplyDeleteFewer sit rotations will not help increase camel rotations--she's getting a lot of cit rotations because the entry and the position are probably strong. When her camel entry and position in the change spin become stronger, she will get more rotations. (btw, she only needs 2 for the feature anyway.)
skate mom-- check out the Label Cloud for "change" and changecoaches." If she's not competing (and at Basic 4-5 I doubt she is), then just tell the coach you don't feel it's working out and you will not be taking from him anymore. He sounds like an unpleasant character. Bring a receipt with you stating that you are paid in full and make him sign it so he can't make trouble for you.
ReplyDeleteFrom beginner to Basic 4-5 in a year is very good progress, don't be discouraged.
MommyTime, your coach knows what she's doing!
ReplyDeleteorangechiffon, yes a camel is essentially a classic spiral position. It is NOT however, the uber-spiral that every tries to do now, with the foot way up over the head. Camel should have a nice arched back, body more or less parallel to the ice. If you know the calisthenics "superman" exercise-- lie on your belly on the floor, and lift your shoulders and your legs. That much arch is about correct for a camel.
ReplyDeleteI thought the 3:38 post meant "ballet dance" as opposed to "ice dance".
ReplyDeleteI had thought skaters did not spot at all. I thought we just practiced until dizziness did not bother us anymore. Maybe I should try it. If you exit the spin onto an edge, instead of a flat, do you turn your head continuously to maintain the spotting?
Hey Xan this is probably not the right post to comment on, but i have a question. I am a skater who has gone just about as far as i can in my hometown. I always knew that the day would come when i have to move away but, now that i am on the precipice of moving the idea seems scary to me. I know that if i want to advance ,which i do, i will have to move but i don"t know what to do to ease my fears. so many thoughts are running through my head. Can i handle it? what will it be like without my parents? am i to old to train seriously? Will i make friends ? will it be to tough? Please help me Xan!!!
ReplyDeleteHow old are you, Anonymous 10:03 PM?
ReplyDeleteI, my sister, and my wife left home (separately, for academic reasons) when we were 16. So obviously I am a fan of the idea, but naturally you should have
1. A plan for life outside of skating, such as school, a job, and a place to sleep.
2. A financial plan.
If you have those, no matter how your training turns out you will be okay. On social matters I will not offer advice...
The (standard) camel vs. (standard hip level) spiral question is interesting! Are the free hip / free leg positions exactly the same? I somehow felt more free hip turnout is needed for camel because the upper body is parallel with the ice instead of slightly sideways in a spiral?
ReplyDeleteI am fifteen years old and on the intermediate level with a double axel getting close to triple sal
ReplyDeleteSend me an email (address in the sidebar), and I will put you in touch with the mother of a national skater who may have some resources for you. I have also been working on a "who to call" post, and I'll look for some resources for your situation, which I had not considered. Good luck!
ReplyDeleteGood luck to you, Anon at 12:21AM!
ReplyDeleteI have always found spins difficult, and it took me many months (years) to learn to consistently pull off a fast, centered forward scratch spin. Now that I am skating again I am very thankful that the learning curve looks to be shorter the second time around. I am getting new skates/blades soon though so I am a little worried about the change undoing any progress.
What is it called when a skater does a camel with the free hip pointing up towards the ceiling (vs the hips parallel to the ice)?
Emily, new blades usually make spinning easier. The sideways camel is just that-- it's simply an alternate camel position. Matt Savoie used to do an upwards facing camel--very difficult. Meryl Davis does this also, but she has Charlie holding her up.
ReplyDeleteJust wanted to chime in with another thanks: this advice really helped me today as I had another lesson focusing on spins. We started working on a backspin too and, oddly, that one seems easier. Go figure. Maybe because its relationship to a jumping position makes it feel more familiar? In any case, thanks for such a supportive and useful place to ask questions, Xan!
ReplyDeleteThanks, Xan! Crossing my fingers that my new blades will be a help. I would love to be able to do a sideways camel, it's on my goal list. :)
ReplyDeleteI've been able to do a sit spin for awhile, but this summer I've started skidding on the edge while actually in the spin, obviously making it uncentered. I've never had this happen before on any spin, but it's been going on for a couple weeks and I've had my blades sharpened - is it 'operator error' or possibly an issue with the blades?
ReplyDeleteI love blaming the equipment. If other things dependent on the quality of the blade are going wrong, then check the blades. If it's just the spin, it's you. Common errors in sit spin: free hip too low, free hip too high, starting rotation too soon (cheating the entry edge), knees apart, back bent too far forward (fold instead of reach). Without seeing it hard to say, but you sound like you're on a forced edge, which is generally an alignment problem--i.e. you're not centered over your skating side.
ReplyDeleteOh I like that - fold instead of reach for the sit spin. I've really been having a hard time getting the sit spin back, so I'll try that thought.
ReplyDeleteActually it has been a pretty blah week for my spins in general :(. I find consistency with spins to be a real challenge.